A local newspaper in Georgia, USA, reports that some local residents are buying Iraqi dinars in cash form, in the hope of profiting from a revaluation of the currency.
According to the Moultrie Observer, people are buying boxes of crisp Iraqi dinars that look fresh off the printing press. It goes on to quote a local commodities trader as saying he could possibly think of worse investments than Iraqi money at this time, but would be hard pressed to do so:
"If you want to make a wild investment, I'd buy Russian rubles ... It (the dinar) would be one of the most foolhardy investments you can make."
Meanwhile, CNBC columnist Kelley Holland says the dinar is the subject of a variety of scams, and regulators and watchdogs are sounding alarms:
"If someone has been telling you about the rosy prospects for the dinar, please, please, be careful. It's almost certainly too good a story to be true."
On Thursday, Komo News in Seattle, Washington, ran a news report on the dinar and interviewed one woman who had actually bought what she believes to be Iraqi dinars on the internet. You can find the full video report on the next page ...
Most poeple have paid a 20-30% premium to get into the dinar. They will pay another 20-30% to get out of their dinar. That's a loss of about 50%. That's probably the best outcome to be expected. They could lose 100%
The good new for Chartreuse is, it seems she only invested a small amount. We live we learn... at least most do.
I've heard of way to may stories about families being torn apart over the dinar. People sinking their entire savings, their retirement acounts into this. Lot's of people even borrowed money to buy this crap. There's going to be a lot of hurt when this thing falls apart.
Chartreuse - As Stew said, it's not the face value of the Dinar notes themselves you'll lose out on during the redenomination - but rather the cost of buying & selling it at outrageous rip-off spreads. Normal FX cash spreads (eg, tourists buying banknotes for a vacation) are often under 5-10% (including commission & signed-for insured delivery) whilst pro-Forex electronic trading is in "pips" (a "pip" is 1/100 of a cent). Dinar trades by amateur Dinar sellers are a massive ripoff, ie, selling 1m Dinar's ($854 worth) for $1,220 is a whopping >40% spread. Lower denom's are even worse - One popular licensed pumper (like many others) sells $85 worth of Dinar's (100,000 Dinars) for $185. That's an insane 115% spread. On top of that, some also charge a minimum $150 per 1m Dinar's ($854) fee (on top of poor rates) when changed back leaving people spending $1,220 and getting back $704. Between 40-80% of the original investment would have been swallowed up in outrageous trading spreads & fees. At those fees, the Dinar could appreciate a whopping 70% and many still wouldn't break even.
It's taken a long time, but people are finally waking up to the fact that many amateur Internet Dinar sellers who've only popped up since the 2003 invasion aren't making money from holding Dinar's in anticipation of being an overnight millionaire (if they did they certainly wouldn't be selling them on any more than holders of a stock about to soar would sell them in advance!) - they're making money from the exorbitant trading charges which first-time Forex speculators pay up without thinking "How much does it really cost to change $ to another currency". To which the truthful is "One hell of a lot less than a 40-80% cut of original $ investment value!"
Likewise, Western troops and civilian contractors going to Iraq get Dinar notes at a fraction of that cost / spread inside Iraq simply by swapping them with Iraqi's who actually prefer $ & Euro's to Dinars precisely because the current Dinar is so overprinted.
The only millionaires-from-Dinars are the ones selling $850 worth of currency for over $1,200 to +100,000 people then giving very poor buy-back rates and slapping a $150 buy-back fee on top of that - complete with "we are under no legal obligation to buy-back" disclaimers so that when the redenomination does take pace, they can simply close the doors without penalty (as Dinar Trade did last year).
That's precisely why there are so many Dinar notes recently flooding EBay second hand - the people selling them realized the "millionaire overnight" mis-selling side of the scam, realized that they lost 1/3rd of their investment in buying fees from iffy dealers and would lose another 1/3rd selling them back to same people, so try and minimize the sale loss by auctioning them on Ebay.
As for becoming "hooked" - it's really best not to dwell on feeling guilty about that, and look on the positive and simply treat it as an investment learning experience, as the conmen behind it have years of experience "pushing the right emotional buttons" and manipulating financially desperate people with false hopes. As mentioned previously, the Pumper named "Phoenix" (and his half-dozen other aliases) was heavily involved in the CMKX scam (penny stock "pump and dump" fraud) based on the same promising vast sums of money backed up only by "secret intel" which was 100% self-created rumor, and he is far from being the only one.
Likewise, "Dinar Daddy" is also involved in "LLC" scams encouraging people to create a Limited Liability Company, put themselves into massively leveraged debt with buying Dinar's with borrowed money, then telling them "it isn't really *their* debt", promptly landing them in trouble with debt collectors (LLC's aren't such a simple debt-evasion scheme as many have learned the hard way).
Your title: Foolhearted investment is the dinar!!!!
Does this mean that Iraq will NEVER have a value on their
money again? EVER?....Has Iraq decided to remain less than all
the other countries in the world??
My opinion was that Iraq was going to be a GREAT Country!
With your opinion of your own country: then what is the rest of
the world suppose to think about Iraq.
THE WORLD NEEDS IRAQ (THE OIL DINAR!) & IRAQ NEEDS THE WORLD!$$$
2collect : "THE WORLD NEEDS IRAQ (THE OIL DINAR!) & IRAQ NEEDS THE WORLD!$$$"
2collect, the Dinar isn't backed by oil. It's a fiat currency just like everyone else's.
they`re working on several way`s increase the VALUE and they have mentioned conncting the oil dinar to the currency! we just have to wait and see! if kwait can REVALUE with no electricty in the bank on 3 -25-1991 @ $3.47 iraq will do the same!
Kuwait never re-valued because they never de-valued to start with. The central bank and all other banks were closed the whole time Saddam invaded. So not one single dinar... NOT ONE... was issued or sold for anything less than the official rate of $3.40, or whatever the rate was at the time. A few people paniced and sold the cash out of their pockets for a lower rate.
Iraq, or the CBI, on the other hand has issued/sold 30 Trillion dinar for a rate of 1166 oer dinar or worse.
How anyone can compare those two situations and expect the same outcome is beyond all logic and reason.
"they`re working on several way`s increase the VALUE and they have mentioned conncting the oil dinar to the currency! we just have to wait and see! if kwait can REVALUE with no electricty in the bank on 3 -25-1991 @ $3.47 iraq will do the same!"
No they aren't. Listen to what the CBI are actually saying - they will redenominate to take out much of the inflation that Saddam inflicted.
Kuwait also never "revalued" at all in 1991. What happened was a temporary panic sell of Kuwait Dinars for $ due to Saddam's invasion causing the normal $3.47 rate to slump to a black market traded rate of .10 *inside Kuwait*, which promptly corrected itself as soon as Saddam was kicked out.
The only comparison with the Iraq Dinar is if you managed to BUY someone else's Iraq Dinar's - right now - at a rate 33.71 per $ (instead of well over 833 per $ Dinar dealers are selling them for) which is highly unlikely (to put it politely) and then sold them on for the current normal exchange rate of approx 1170:1.
It's like saying "America "RV'd" the Dollar in 1987 because of Black Monday" (October 19, 1987).
There was no central bank "RV" of the Kuwait Dinar. It's an urban myth peddled by dishonest pumpers who spoon-feed amateurs anything that sounds half plausible without actually explaining in it too much detail.
See the 1986-2008 Kuwait Dinar vs the US Dollar graph for yourself:-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/KWD_against_USD.PNG
Just curious..I hold no Dinar..Iraq has over 100 trillion in natural resourses and with all countries forgiven thier debt ..Im wondering why all theses countries are doin this??Iraq has more resourses than Kuwait yet Kuwait is at 3.60 / 1..How can it not go up in value?
ryan - "Just curious..I hold no Dinar..Iraq has over 100 trillion in natural resourses and with all countries forgiven thier debt ..Im wondering why all theses countries are doin this??Iraq has more resourses than Kuwait yet Kuwait is at 3.60 / 1..How can it not go up in value?"
First up, Iraq doesn't have "100 trillion" in natural resources (not priced in US dollars anyway). They have 143.5bn proven oil reserves (which at $103 oil prices is worth around $14.8tn). To keep things in perspective, Saudi Arabia has $27tn of proven oil reserves yet only $266bn worth of Riyals in circulation. Kuwait has $11tn of oil but only approx $120bn of Kuwait Dinar in circulation. UAE has over $10.3tn of oil yet only $268bn worth of Dirhams. Russia has $7.8tn of oil yet only $720bn worth of Rubles. Nigeria has $4tn of oil but only $75bn worth of Naira. Venezuela has $30tn of oil yet under $175bn worth of Bolivars, etc. People thinking "well Iraq has around $14.8tn of oil reserves therefore it must have $14.8-30tn worth of currency in circulation changeable 1:1 for US Dollars today" are seriously misunderstanding how the world, economies, currencies and Forex works.
Now halve that for what gets exported (every oil producing country ends up using about 1/2 of its reserves - otherwise it would just end up paying more to reimport it again) and you get a more realistic figure of $7-8tn saleable value spread over the next +50 years or so (assuming a perfect oil infrastructure).
Secondly, currencies aren't determined by natural resources (if they were Russia & Venezuela would be strongest and the Swiss Franc & Japanese Yen the weakest), they're determined by supply of money relative to other countries. Norway is oil rich, Sweden is oil poor, yet the two otherwise near identical neighboring Nordic nations have roughly the same value. Venezuela has more than double the reserves of Iraq (296bn vs 143bn barrels) and they "lopped" (redenominated).
Measured in Dinars, all Iraqi's are already millionaires, ie there are over 30tn Dinar in a country with barely 30m people (that's 1m Dinar's printed per person). The problem is, they're "millionaires" in the same way Zimbabwe citizens were "millionaires" before they abandoned their currency - chronic / hyper-inflation resulting in a vastly diluted currency is not "wealth" for either domestic residents or foreign currency speculators.
Kuwait has 120bn Kuwaiti Dinars in circulation. Iraq has an eye-watering +30,000bn Dinars in circulation (they've printed more banknotes than are used by 1bn North Americans, Europeans and Russians *combined*). That's why it's worth many times less and why you cannot compare Kuwait with Iraq any more than you can compare the modern Swiss Franc with 1923 Germany (whose highest hyper-inflated denomination of 10,000 / 20,000 / 50,000 Marks are exactly the same as Iraq's hyper-inflated currency denomination of 10,000 / 25,000, Dinar's). The only way out of that is a redenomination (a "lop"). Oil reserves are completely irrelevant other than being able to use them as barter for reducing Iraq's external debts (which is a completely different thing to declaring "I've got oil so I can will magically "cure" chronic domestic inflation without taking any overprinted money out of circulation")...
Barry, If you were a salseman to stop people buying dinar you would be worth Trillions after that speach! If I had never bought one Dinar and just read that I would be SO convinced that it is worthless , useless and meaningless. Why wouldnt F.B.I. been turned over to this scamming of the Dinar and arrest these goober heads? Seems like there should be enough evidence and clearly enough documented paper trails to prove the Illegal reresentation of currency worth as deception and manipulation for personal gain to these dealers and sellers of Dinar. Really, any answer to that question, is it not Illegal to do deceptive trade? I am a big fan of your in depth knowledge as well as Stew, but somewhere in this mix there is a hidden issue that is not being surfaced in how this is going on 10 years and yet no one has the decency to bring Feds in to stop corruption, that is what they seek to do, right. I know you understand this question and it is not to challange your intteligence cause I see how smart you are so with that said I know you will answer that with a good smart answer that will releive a lot of these Dinar owners. Thanks
Eddy - Thanks for your comments! Some actually have been shut down. Examples : "US Dinar Ex", "Dinar Fund" and "US Dinar Bank" (all their websites are down after being slapped with "Cease & Desist" orders):-
http://dinaroutcast.forumotion.com/t8018-us-dinar-bank-cease-and-disist-order
The only reason the others are still up is because they have separated sales from "pumping" and use mostly anonymous avatar's who hear invented "rumours" that it "might" go up. This puts them into the gray area of mis-selling-by-proxy without technically being legal fraud (though when the Dinar does eventually redenominate, they still may well be slapped with private civil lawsuits.
Likewise, if you look around at several Dinar pumper sites, you'll see the regular disclaimer of "For entertainment purposes only" attempted cop-out. Examples:-
1. Scroll down to the bottom of "Breitling's Blog" and you'll clearly see the words "WARNING! This site is for entertainment purposes only" (which says it all!).
2. Look at Dinar Daddy's "Disclaimer" and you'll see what basically says "Even if we're caught out blatantly lying, we won't have to correct any lies told even after they're pointed out to us" which is rather different to disclaimers by other genuine Forex sites along the lines of "we will strive to correct inaccuracies at the earliest possible opportunity".
3. "Planet Dinar" ("Blaino") disclaimer reads : "All information posted on the Site is purely for entertainment and should not be relied upon for any purpose."
4. "DinarVets" & "Dinar Speculation" both also read : "All information posted on the Site is purely for entertainment"
Pretty much the same open admission "the content on this site is no more valid than a Hollywood movie script" discourages potential private mis-selling lawsuits from private prosecutions.
In short, the only reason they're still getting away with it is by separating the sales aspect from the "pumping" rumor forum aspect. If they merged them, they'd be taken down by the weekend (as some of the smaller ones already have).
Appreciate your clearity on that!
LOL You guys know what the funniest thing is? Not one of you guys, even the dinar holders , not even the publisher of this article knows the TRUTH... it is an "investment" and just like all investments , it is speculation, so what you guys are doing is very simple and very clear to all, you are all speculating on speculation( try arguing that).. otherwise it would be a scam ( its not)... And since this is fact and everyone here knows this, I would like to encourage the dinar holders to look up the psychology behind people that are on here CONSTANTLY being negative about this investment... Its a very easy tell of people that cant let this something go even though they are negative about it. ask yourself why do they spend that much time being Neg? ( look at STEW and how much time he spends his life talking negative about something that is speculation and that he is not even participating in) Its basically a cover up of something more sinister they have going on. Maybe attention is all they want ..IDK.. (psych) 101.. read up.. Dinar holders just hang in there , dont listen to people that are consistently neg about the investment because the fact is they dont have 100% proof they only talk speculation ( they cannot argue that statement) . Its the only truth that is here, everything-els is speculation . Now lets speculate the speculated investment on a positive note ---Go Rv! P.S Haters need not to respond, this will only make what i said more EVIDENT! unless you are agreeing with this simple yet very true fact that you dont really know the truth. good day -- end this thread already!
jdog - "I would like to encourage the dinar holders to look up the psychology behind people that are on here CONSTANTLY being negative about this investment…"
...And many others would like dinar holders to examine the "expectation addiction" psychology behind Dinar holders need to attack others with "haters" labels without actually addressing any financial points made whatsoever. It usually derives from pride and fear (of being wrong) - hence the obsessive need for some Dinar holders to try and silence other people's fact based posts with emotional ranting. "psych 101" 😉
PS : Just out of interest, how many other currencies going through a redenomination (lop) other than the Iraqi Dinar have you traded? You do realise some of us trade currencies for a living right (and that what Iraq is doing is no different to what 70 others countries around the world have done over the past century)?
Hey JDOG, I am neither for nor against! But I have gone on the Dinar Daddy and other sites that post all day every day these Secret Intel get ready to trade in Sites and told them about this thread, I asked them to put that knowledge to work here and debate this. Not one response! There are only 2 guys here who tell it like it is, on those other blogs there are many people with this so called INTEL,People like me and Barry and Stew cant even join, wander why? Either way if you know someone that would come from those sites and give facts to these measily 2 guys and show what they are calling truthfull statements then I believe these guys would be glad to take that information and run with it or at least investigate the secret inside info and give a fair assesment and rebuttle with some damn good expertise!! But No one from those other sites will do it! What does that tell you??? Maybe you know some people that can come to this thread and show some factual evidence that this is a REVALUE and not a REDINOMINATE? Any response to why they wont come????????????????? Wish you luck and a nice day sir.
Barry, you are very knowledgeable. But, I have a question. If this is so bad an investment, why is HSBC, one of the largest banks in the world, buying so much dinar at auction? And its not just them, if you take a look at the list of banks, some are a veritable "who's who" of the banking industry. This isn't a loaded question, I'm seriously curious why banks that are way more knowledgeable than I, would dump so much money into a worthless investment.
Boomer... can you provide a link that shows these banks buying dinar.
boomer6966 - "Barry, you are very knowledgeable. But, I have a question. If this is so bad an investment, why is HSBC, one of the largest banks in the world, buying so much dinar at auction? And its not just them, if you take a look at the list of banks, some are a veritable “who’s who” of the banking industry. This isn’t a loaded question, I’m seriously curious why banks that are way more knowledgeable than I, would dump so much money into a worthless investment."
Hi boomer. Banks buy and sell foreign currency all the time. You should see what some banks are buying in Yuan. Likewise in reverse with some 3rd world countries buying US Treasury securities. HSBC are also buying more because they're trading more inside Iraq (via 70% ownership of Dar Essalaam Investment Bank inside Iraq):-
"In the case of HSBC’s subsidiary, the new capital requirement means its current capital base of 57 billion dinars will be increased five-fold in the next five years, Hogan said."
https://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2010/08/17/uk-bank-hsbc-sees-big-opportunities-in-iraq/
Banks also are not "investing" in the Dinar (you don't "invest" in paper currencies, you "speculate" as that's FX trading) in the sense of hoarding 25,000 Dinar bills and giggling "They'll each be worth $25k next week!" - they buy them up to use to invest in Iraq's infrastructure with the intention of seeing real future growth (ie, they buy them and then spend them - they don't hide them under the mattress or keep piles locked up in vaults). From same above link:-
"HSBC is currently working with an international organisation, which it did not name, that is buying up cement plants in Iraq for which it hopes to be the arranger and lender, Hogan said. Most of the infrastructure spending is still government-led but a private sector is slowly emerging, providing potential new sources of income to the banks operating there."
Their investment is not Dinar banknotes but rather the profits that come from buying up infrastructure on the cheap and then re-selling / contracting it's services out in the future when, eg, economic and construction demand increases.
There's really nothing unique about this (other than the way some pumpers pounce on anything and everything Iraq does with foreign banks as "proof of the RV"). If HSBC decided (and were allowed) to open up in North Korea, you'll see them buying up a lot of Won's too. You're absolutely right that banks aren't stupid, but they aren't buying Dinar's for the same reason or intentions that some Western first-time FX gamblers are panic buying them on the back of Internet pumper "conference" calls and rumor-mill sites...
Likewise on the national level to debunk absurd pumper rumors that "entire countries are panic buying Dinar's for the RV" - Countries do not hold any significant reserves of Dinar’s anywhere. As far as global foreign held FX reserves are concerned, 61.4% is the US $, 26.3% is the Euro €, 4% is the British £, 3.8% is the Japanese Yen, 0.1% is the Swiss franc, and the 4.4% left is literally all other currencies of all other +160 countries combined. Countries do not hold large sums of Iraqi Dinars any more than they hold large sums of the Algerian Dinar, Albanian Leks, or Iranian Rials, etc. All third-world currencies combined make up <1% of FX reserves held by most nations. In fact, the total number of Dinar's outside Iraq is estimated to be barely $6bn value – nothing more than a barely visible rounding error to most nations.
Hey jdog: Very well said...
Hey Barry:
Many thanks for pointing out your ignorance as a apparent "currency trader", especially with your reference that the Iraqi Dinar (IQD) will be LOPing their currency... Now I will know not to seek your advice...
Let's assume you're correct... with the IQD currently valued at about 1/10th of penny, it will need to revalue at a much higher rate in order to even have a value worthy of LOPing to begin with, which indicates that the investment in the IQD will be very viable either way...
In the end, in order for Iraq to meet their 2011 Budget (which has yet to be opened), the revalued rate needs to be at least $3.41 which would be about 20 cents less that Kuwait's Dinar (currently about $3.60)...
This is based on current oil production revenues because the US, Great Britain, Germany & France (at $32/Barrel), as well as China & Russia (at $40/Barrel) all currently have an agreement with Iraq to purchase all their current production (currently 1.6 Million Barrels a day) until they reach 5 Million Barrels a day,Too many of you ignore the fact that Iraq's currency was worth about $3.22 pre-war and that Iraq's resources are far more valuable than Kuwait's and therefore, they can justify a rate higher than Kuwait...
Ray... you obviously have no clue what a lop even is. A 3 zero lop means they will issue new currency. The new currency will be worth 1000 tomes more than the old currency.
Old currency .00085
New currency .85
1000 old dinar will be traded for 1 new dinar.
So they have 30 trillion dinar now... after the lop it will be 30 billion dinar.
You have fallen for the "must RV for the budget" SCAM for the 7th year in a row. EVERY year since the dinar has been out Iraq has proposed and approved a budget. Every year con men have convinced dupes that the currency MUST RV for the budget. For 7 years dupes have fallen for the same crap.
"Many thanks for pointing out your ignorance as a apparent “currency trader”, especially with your reference that the Iraqi Dinar (IQD) will be LOPing their currency… Now I will know not to seek your advice…"
Ray, you obviously don't appear to understand what a "lop" is. Please read Stew's post before throwing around the word "ignorant" as there's nothing funnier that reading the "wisdom" of Dinar speculators who call the Central Bank of Iraq senior staff in charge of the process "liars" for not parroting the pumpers...
April 13th 2011 – “Iraq’s Central Bank announced on Tuesday that the project of Iraqi Dinar re-denomination consisting of removing three zeroes is close to completion. The re-denomination project is believed to be a strategic plan that will be passed to the ministerial council and Parliament once complete. Iraqi economists believe the re-denomination of Iraqi Dinar will not have a major influence on the purchasing power of the Iraqi Dinar which the government has hopes high on it.”
Nov 28th 2011 – “Deputy chairman of the ICB Dr Muzher Saleh said the bank is working to issue the new currency in addition to coins in both Arabic and Kurdish. This will include a new 50 Dinar bill with a value of $43 (50,000 current note Dinar).”
Feb 25th 2012 – “Mahma Khalil, Member of the Iraqi Parliament and official spokesperson of the Economic Committee stated that the new bill will be printed by a European company and introduced to the market gradually and in a well-planned schedule to ensure it will not result in shocks and would not have a negative impact on the market,” explained MP Khalil. He added the exchange rate between the new banknotes and the old ones would be 1:1,000.”
What part of exchange rate of 1:1000 (a lop) do you not understand in several official Central Bank of Iraq statements, Ray? Not once have the CBI said "RV" in the way Dinar holders believe it... It's always been "redenominate, redenominate, redenominate, based on Turkey, You will received 1 post redenomination Dinar for every 1,000 you currently hold”, “the post redenomination value of current 50,000 Dinar’s will be approx $43″, etc. The only people who refuse to see what this means are those who simply don’t *want* to see it...
As for what the largest and most used professional currency site on the net is saying, try this:-
"In 2010, the Central Bank of Iraq announced their plans to redenominate the Iraqi Dinar to ease cash transactions. The intention would be to drop three zeros from the nominal value of bank notes; but the actual value of the dinar would remain unchanged. That would mean that 1,000 IQD (pre-redenomination) and 1 dinar (post-redenomination) would both be worth the same amount in US Dollars."
http://www.xe.com/currency/iqd-iraqi-dinar?r=2
Ray, just to respond to your other points:-
Ray - "In the end, in order for Iraq to meet their 2011 Budget (which has yet to be opened), the revalued rate needs to be at least $3.41 which would be about 20 cents less that Kuwait’s Dinar (currently about $3.60)"
As Stew has said this lie has been peddled year after year and it's flat out wrong. All you're doing is cutting and pasting debunked conspiracy theories churned out by Dinar pumpers. Iraq doesn’t have to meet their budget any more than the US does because the Dinar is as much a fiat currency as everyone else and they can simply print more money to make up shortfalls. Why people believe Iraq is on a gold standard operating inside a strict zero debt policy is beyond me...
Ray - "This is based on current oil production revenues because the US, Great Britain, Germany & France (at $32/Barrel), as well as China & Russia (at $40/Barrel) all currently have an agreement with Iraq to purchase all their current production (currently 1.6 Million Barrels a day) until they reach 5 Million Barrels a day,Too many of you ignore the fact that Iraq’s currency was worth about $3.22 pre-war and that Iraq’s resources are far more valuable than Kuwait’s and therefore, they can justify a rate higher than Kuwait…"
That's complete and utter nonsense - all aspects:-
1. The US, Great Britain, etc, pay for oil at its market price. That's why the price of gas has gone up in every country you've quoted. If they were still importing it at $32 - then you'd still be paying 1981 prices when you fill up at the pump because it wouldn't have ever gone up in price! This is just so silly it's right up there with "Gold is still secretly $32 per oz" when everyone else can see exactly what the price is every time they pay for gas... They have long-term contracts, yes, but the price of oil itself isn't fixed - just a service guarantee to supply oil. The conspiracy theory from which this originates also claimed Iraq had "750bn barrels of oil". They don't - they have approx 143.5bn. The source for this rubbish is already a proven lie / confused ranting.
It's also debunked by basic maths : Iraq exports approx $78.38bn per year of which 84% ($65.84bn) is crude oil. Your "1.6m barrels per day at $32 per barrel x 365 days" works out to just $18.7bn oil exports, which is way off the real figure. Take the real market price of oil (+$103) - and the maths add up (+$60bn).
Seriously, even a child of 9 can do the maths here. A lot of Dinaraholics who fall for this should never be allowed to criticise the education system again...
2. It doesn't matter how much or how little oil Iraq has because the Dinar is a fiat currency. It is simply not backed in value by oil. Learn how currencies work and why they have the relative values that they do (and I don't mean from Dinar forums - I mean buy a book on global currencies or take a course in economics)... Venezuela has more than double Iraq's oil reserves and had an even weaker currency of 2,150 Bolivars to the $1 - and guess what - they lopped down to 2.15:1. There is no "RV" just because Iraq has some oil.
3. Iraq's currency wasn't "$3.22 pre-war" - I have already explained this to you on page 3 in this topic:-
https://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2011/11/11/iraqi-dinars-one-of-the-most-foolhardy-investments-you-can-make/comment-page-3/#comment-93336
That $3.22 applies only to the non-inflated demonetized “Swiss Dinar” which has already been “RV’d” in 2003 at a rate of 150:1 vs the NID, ie, Iraqi’s who held the non-inflated Dinar’s have already been given 150 for every 1 held to match the value of the inflated NID – LONG before the Dinar hype started up. The current NID notes you hold have NEVER - *EVER* - had a market rate anywhere near $3.22. I'll repeat that - the $3.22 related RV you're waiting for happened 9 years ago...
If you believe otherwise, then you must also believe that you changed up $1,000 US Dollars into €760 Euro's in Spain, you'll become "rich" because the value of the Spanish Peseta used to be 166ESP to $1, so you'll be able to change it back for $166,000... It's exactly the same silly thing! The NID's and the pre-2003 Swiss Dinar's are as completely two separate currencies from each other as the New Iraqi Dinar and the Norwegian Krone. Again - learn how currency replacement works and what happened with the "Swiss Dinar's"...
With this wealth of debated information I yet to see any one from the pumper sites come here and show their factual data to rebuttle these valid points, so with that said I feel Stew and Barry made it CLEAR. Good try Ray Dog and I give you credit for your valiant effort to help every one see your point on this turning into a 1000 fold return investment. If you (Ray Dog) have acess to those pumper forums(ANGUSTURA, SD Chat, Iraqi Dinar Chat, Dinar Daddy, ARIZONAHEAT, Breitlings..................) then copy and paste any of this and challenge those guys to make this sites info from Stew and Barry wrong, I bet it will help you make a better decision but I also bet they wont SHOW, also if any of them will get in here and set the record straight then it might be worth all Dinar investors mind releif, for now, my brain reads the Barry and Stew educated well beyond my understandings point and takes it as WORD.
Hey Eddy:
Do you ever wonder why Stew, Barry, etc. spend so much of their "valuable" time on this site bashing the investment in the Iraqi Dinar (IQD)?
How foolish are you going to feel post RV if they are wrong?
Keep in mind, there is always a risk in any investment and for only a $1200 investment to buy a 1 Million IQD and with the assumption it were to revalue at even one USD, your ROI would be $1 Million...
Also keep in mind, the IQD was worth around $3.22 pre-war (currently worth about 1/10th of a US penny) and today their neighbor's dinar(Kuwait) is currently worth approximately $3.60, so it is not unreasonable to believe that the Iraq currency could return to its previous value or more, especially when their resources are far more valuable than Kuwait's...
Eddy, I do not listen to any "pumper" forums... Of the forums that do not directly sell any IQD, which are most, explain to me how they will benefit financially if I choose to invest in more IQD, especially when they have no idea who I will purchase the currency from?
In the end, I could care less if you choose to invest or not... I only started to share a different perspective based on my own due diligence...
The only risk I see in this investment is not being involved and that is your choice based on your own due diligence, therefore should not be solely based on my point of view or Stew's & Barry's (who in my opinion are both sadly misguided)...
Best of Luck, Ray
It is preposterously unreasonable to believe Iraq’s current currency could return to that old value. The new currency that will be issued will be worth about $1, but it will take 1000 of the current dinars to get 1 of the new dinar.
The Kuwait comparison is childishly foolish.
The exchange rate of a currency is only half of what a currency is actually worth. The other half of the equation is amount of currency in circulation.
When Iraq had that great rate that pumpers talk about they had a total money supply (m2) of about 30 Billion dinar. I’ve never seen a breakdown of cash vs electronic money, but say it was 50/50, same as today, that means Iraq had 15 billion dinar in circulation back when they had that good rate.
Iraq’s latest currency in circulation number has actually ballooned recently to 39 Trillion dinar… with a total m2 of 70 Trillion. So they roughly have 2000 times more currency now then they did when they had the good rate. I don’t know how much more simple it can get for people to understand why the rate is where it is today. 2 thousand times more currency, 2 thousand times lower rate.
Kuwait… look at this link.
http://www.cbk.gov.kw/cbkweb/servlet/cbkmain?Action=mtbl&archive=201203&tbl=RM02
Kuwait has 1.2 Billion dinar issued.
Compare that to the 40 Trillion Iraq has issued.
Iraq has 33,000 times more currency issued.
So for every one Kuwaiti dinar out, there’s 33,000 Iraqi dinar. How could anyone think those two currencies should have about the same exchange rate. That’s simply nuts.
Kuwait has 1.2 billion, worth $3.6 each, so that’s $4.3 billion dollars worth of currency.
Iraq has 39 Trillion dinar, worth .00085 each, that’s $33 billion dollars worth.
Kuwait dinar is worth $4.3 billion
Iraqi dinar is worth $33 billion.
Iraqi dinar is currently worth 7.6 times MORE than the Kuwaiti dinar.
Take this to any guru and have them explain it.
They will make up BS about Iraq having already removed a lot of their currency. That’s a huge lie. The CBI reports the number and it has been repeated a number of times in the delete 3 zero articles. There is absolutely zero proof that Iraq has reduced currency in circulation… and there is tons of proof supplied by the Central Bank of Iraq, the IMF, and hundreds of delete 3 zero articles stating the amount of dinar in circulation… it all proves the gurus are lying through their teeth.
"Do you ever wonder why Stew, Barry, etc. spend so much of their “valuable” time on this site bashing the investment in the Iraqi Dinar (IQD)?"
Can't speak for Stew, but personally, I'm both interested & fascinated in the psychology of what is without question - "21st Century Tulip Mania". The question can be reversed - why do some people convinced of becoming overnight millionaires create so many posts attacking others need to post and actively run away from responding to literally any point made that they disagree with (or talking about them rather than to them?) Why is it those who most claim to have "due diligence" are usually the ones least likely to use maths in arguments (like working out what the price of oil Iraq sells at if it exports 1.6m barrels per day (x 365 days) and makes annual $65.4bn oil income per year? (Hint : It sure ain't $32...). All I've done on the thread is point out the truth with the maths to back it up - and that drives some people berserk. Censorship by smearing only works on Dinar specific pumper forums because of the "hive mindset" controlled environment. On other more neutral / professional global currency / business forums, the pumpers get utterly destroyed - with the truth.
The old saying is true : Those who know what they're talking about - do the maths. Those who don't just attack the mathematicians need to do the maths...
"Keep in mind, there is always a risk in any investment and for only a $1200 investment to buy a 1 Million IQD and with the assumption it were to revalue at even one USD, your ROI would be $1 Million…"
In order for them to "RV" 30tn Dinar's 1:1 there would need to be $30tn worth of Dinars in circulation. The total combined global economy is only $60tn and Iraq's GDP makes up just 0.217% of it. Maybe every country should print 230x their own GDP (which is what the "RV" many are hilariously pushing actually is)? I mean that way Obama could print 3.45 quadrillion (which is the same 230x multiple of American's $15tn GDP as $30tn "RV" is of Iraq's $127bn GDP) and give every American $1m with free health-care to spare! "Millionaire overnight from Obama" sounds silly? So does "millionare overnight just from changing some banknotes up and back again" (ie, the "RV")...
In fact, maybe every country could "RV" the same amount and gamble on each others "RV's"! With over 180 countries and $1m free money to had on each RV, you could make 1,000 Quinquagintacentillion Dollars and be worth 10 Nonagintacentillion planet Earth's global economies!
"Also keep in mind, the IQD was worth around $3.22 pre-war"
And you could once buy 1oz gold with $22 and a house for $1,000. And that too is irrelevant as to the value of a massively inflated currency since then... As explained previously, that only non-demonetised currency (Swiss Dinar's used predominantly in the Kurdish region) was "RV'd" to match the NID's back in 2003 (at a rate of 150:1). There's simply no 3:1 value to "restore" the Dinar to via an RV because the NID's never had that value in the first place. Kuwait's is worth 1,000x more because they only have 32.9bn Dinars in circulation. Iraq has a whopping 30tn Dinars so its value is diluted. The IQD isn't undervalued - it's overprinted. The more you print - the more value it loses. It genuinely is that simple. No, really.
"so it is not unreasonable to believe that the Iraq currency could return to its previous value or more
Yes - with a lop / redenomination. That's why they exist - it's the whole point of them. You will however, exchange them at 1:1000 not 1:1 - as the Iraqi Central Bank have openly and repeatedly stated...
especially when their resources are far more valuable than Kuwait’s…"
As irrelevant as Venezuela's 2x Iraq's oil was to their lop.
"I only started to share a different perspective based on my own due diligence…"
Genuine "diligence" starts with a basic grasp of "what is basic inflation" and "why the value of money gets diluted the more you create" is not magically inverted for Iraq just because some Dinar holders have formed a cult out of wanting it to be... Seriously Ray, the complete logic meltdown of believing printing money is bad for everyone except Iraq, and yet is "revaluing" and "creating wealth" when Iraq does it is approaching slapstick farce. If you want to see a country of self-declared millionaires overnight, go to Zimbabwe or build a time-machine and visit 1920's Germany...
The Iranian Rial is 10.5x weaker than Iraq's (currently 1.00 USD = 12,265.00). Why aren't people panic buying Rial's in anticipation of the Iranian's "RV-ing" the Rial "because they have oil"? A: Because there is no organised pumper scam / confidence trick behind it encouraging people to suspend critical thinking on the back of an unhealthy anticipation addiction as there is with the Dinar...
"The only risk I see in this investment is not being involved"
How much does it cost buy 1m Dinar's - you said you paid $1,200? And how much does it cost to sell it back? Usually $800-$900. That whopping $300-400 25-34% spread (which is far, far out of proportion to even common tourist exchange rates let alone Forex trading "pips") is your loss and is exactly where Dinar salesmen make their money.
Eventually you will figure it out : Dinar salesmen don't get rich from holding Dinar - they get rich from getting rid of them for $ to you at a ripoff cost of 1/4 to 1/3rd of your "investment"...
Red Flag : If you were a Swedish Krona salesmen, and you "knew" Krone's were going to go up 99,999% overnight, would you be selling them on to other people? No... Would you sell a penny stock that's about to soar? No...
wow this is crazy. Lets just all agree to disagree. Good supporting facts from both sides and its mostly opinion and speculation. Dinar holders good luck and we hope for the best. Anti dinar investors thanks for your diligent investigation regarding this investment, well noted and you can only hope it doesnt gain value so that it supports your theory. Really is no reason to discuss it as individuals we all have the right to buy what we want and share our opinion. Its not going to change the passion one feels for their beliefs or in this case their investments. Agree to disagree and move on to something that really matters.
Chasting... my post is not opinion. It is factual information supplied by the Central Bank of Iraq, The Central Bank of Kuwait, The IMF and dozens of articles from Iraq. It is a hard cold fact that Iraq has 33,000 times more dinar in circulation than Kuwait. It is a hard cold fact that as of now the Iraqi dinar is worth 7.6 times more than the Kuwaiti dinar.
Yes... we can all have an opinion on if a currency with 33,000 times more units than another currency should have the same value per unit as that currency.
As a thinking person... don't you find it a bit peculiar that this sure fire 100,000% RV is not talked about in any legitame finacial circles. It is only talked about on locked down websites controlled by anonymous people with a financial stake in keeping people misinformed. People like me are not allowed to post on any of these boards.
Stew, agreeing to disagree an its not because what you say is false. Just moved on to the next investment. Meanwhile ill let the money i used and could afford to lose for this dinar play out. One way or the other i feel i gained through knowledge of emerging markets. been a fun ride.
LOL... THANK-YOU... MOVE-ON! 😀
Hey Stew:
Do you have a life outside of trying to sell everyone who has chosen to invest in the Iraqi Dinar?
This is a speculative investment, therefore no one (including you) knows exactly how this investment will play out...
You seem to want to place so much credibility on articles coming out of Iraq as being 100% factual when many of the articles have been filled with misinformation because they are controlled by the Iraqi government versus using a little common sense as to what is truly possible based on history...
We all know that you don't believe in this investment, which is fine... so now is the time for you to find another investment to bash...
Typical dinar holder mentality. When you can’t dispute the facts, go personal and attack the person’s existence.
I would love to know what you think is possible “based on history” Ray.
Not one single country in history has ever increased their money supply 1000s of times during an inflationary period and then simply re-instated the pre-inflationary single unit value to that massive supply of currency. NEVER happened once in history.
Yet… there are about 100 examples of countries redenominating/lopping in the last 40 or so years.
So history is on my side with a score of 100 to 0.
History simply can not be any clearer on the subject.
"This is a speculative investment, therefore no one (including you) knows exactly how this investment will play out…"
Changing US Dollars for Dinars and then back again is no more a "speculative investment" than buying European tourist notes for a vacation just before the Euro changeover then changing them up to Euro's when you get home. You're not "investing" in anything - just swapping banknotes back and forward. It's only a novelty to those who don't understand the process and have precisely zero experience in trading any other foreign currency outside of Iraqi Dinar's.
Try these for a more serious education:-
http://www.reconversionbcv.org.ve/englishversion/pdf/fundamentalscurrencyredenomination.pdf
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1347407&
In the 90" the LEU in Romania was counted in the millions and worth nothing. The guv. decided to cut a few zeros (from 100,000,000 Old Lei to 1,000 New Lei) The value remained the same, but the number was screwed. If this the case of Iraqi dinnar, then everyone is screwed. You bought millions and dinnars and if gov. will decide to change , actualy you are with a few thousands left over. And afterall who knows, maybe will change to a different denomination and you are totaly screwed.
No easy money my friend. This will be unfair for the Iraqi people. While they were at war you were in Cancun and drinking beer. Now you want to ripp the benefits. Go to work.
Curiuos to any one who argues Stew and Barry why 7 years of it "going to happen Monday, going to happen tonight, was put off because," all that same language but it nevcer happens! How can some one yell WOLF year after year and believe it year after year, How many more years will go by and these investers will still hold on? What is it? Greed? Over anxious dreaming, Fantasy? Its not hard to see why any one and seriuosly any one with the extreme wealth of knowledge like Stew and Barry have would not only argue the obvious but probably feel the need to help people stop making bad choices, I wish I would have come across this posting before I bought Dinar! Well all investing give it about 7 more years.
Dear scare mongers, the reason that the Iraqi Dinar is at such a low value, is because the IMF won't allow it to be traded, thus allowing it to return to a reasonable value. That is why you can not go into a bank and purchase Iraqi Dinar, so there is no pressure on it's value to go up, and thus the only reason why it's value remains flat. For example the Australian dollar reached a record high this year against the US dollar, that raise was mainly due to a weak US dollar/ economy. Where as the AU dollar is usually about the 80cent mark, soley due to trading in currency, not because of how much wealth Ausralia has or anything else. The Iraqi Dinar value is low only because the IMF stopped it trading when it got to being as low as it was then, and while the IMF continues to stop it from trading it has no choice, it will remain at this low value. It's true value will only be known when the IMF removes the trading restrictions they have on the Iraqi Dinar. What true value will it return to, I agree will be pure speculation. As for people having investing their life saving in buying Iraqi Dinar, I think is just pure scare tactics. I for one have not, yet I have purchased some 4mill Iraqi Dinar. I had the money to spare to do so, so I did and I have no intention selling until their value improves enough for me to get back at least what I spent (yes at a small increase on their true value at the time). I have some very strong reasons for believing that their value will return to what it was prior to the sanctions that the UN put on Iraq, which was the real reason that the value of the Iraqi Dinar plumitted to it's current low value, nothing elsewhere, and as I have said, that then the IMF stepped in and froze the currency. But I don't intend saying what they are, especially with the likes of Barry, and Stew hovering around shooting everyone down in flames who disagree with them. I will be very excited if the value of the Iraqi Dinar gets to the amount that I believe that it will, but I will just shrug my shoulders and move on if it doesn't.
Also one of those two negative blokes, said that about half the oil that a country produces they keep for their own use, Iraq is currently producing oabout 3bbpd, do you really expect us to believe that Iraq is using half that for their own local use, surely not, what do you take us for fools????
Hi Trevor. First up, it's interesting that your name links directly to a Dinar sales site desperate to talk up sales. Vested interests much? 😉
Secondly, the IMF froze it at that value because that's what it's market value really is and to protect the Dinar from slumping even more by aggressive Forex speculation. The value isn't a number pulled out of thin air and nor is it going to magically jump up when the IMF does take it out of protection without a redenomination actually taking money out of circulation.
The Dinar value is low because there are 30 trillion of them in circulation (vs only 32 billion Kuwaiti Dinars). If Obama printed $15 quadrillion dollars overnight would the $ go up or down in value? Basic economics : The more you print of a currency, the less each currency unit is worth vs other currencies. I really don't understand why this universal fact (to which Iraq is not magically immune) is so difficult for some people to wrap their heads around (beyond taught suspension of disbelief due to "expectation addiction")...
As for Iraq's oil exports, they currently export around $65bn per year. Divided by average $100 oil prices, that works out to 650m barrels per year (or 1.7m barrels per day). Their production capacity is around 2.4m barrels per day. Given Iraq's infrastructure is still being held back in some areas by violence / threat of sabotage, (and that they'd use more oil domestically in industry and construction without it), yes, the truth really is that Iraq - just like every other country - uses 1/3rd to 1/2 of all oil produced for domestic consumption. What else do you think powers their oil power stations, vehicles, industrial machinery, etc, - magic beans?
"I have some very strong reasons for believing that their value will return... But I don’t intend saying what they are,"
Or in other words "I have some super secret Intel that I won't share because I know it's based on misunderstood economics and debunked conspiracy theories that I know in advance will be torn to shreds". Presumably there's also a legal issue involved - that you openly advertise your Iraq sale site here whose disclaimer clearly states "We are not a financial institution and do not offer financial advice" means you couldn't "say" if you wanted to as you'd run the risk of being investigated for fraud, having a cease and desist order slapped on it and being shut down like so many other Dinar sites who started giving out "advice" and manufactured "secret Intel" whilst pretending not to...
http://dinaroutcast.forumotion.com/t8018-us-dinar-bank-cease-and-disist-order
"Corporations Code section 29536 states it is unlawful for any person, directly or indirectly, in connection with the purchase or sale of, the offer to sell, the offer to purchase, the offer to enter into, or the entry into, a commodity, commodity contract, or commodity option to do any of the following: (a) to willfully employ any device, scheme, or artifice to defraud, (B) to willfully make any false report, enter any false record, make any untrue statement of a material fact, or omit to state a material fact necessary in order to make the statements made, in the light of the circumstances under which they were made, not misleading, © to willfully engage in any transaction, act, practice, or course of business which operates or would operate as a fraud or deceit upon any persons, or (d) to willfully misappropriate or convert the funds, security, or property of any other person."
I think we both know exactly what the real reason for "I'm linked to iraqidinars.com but I won't share my super secret intel" reluctance really is 😉
MAN! This is some serious boring banter! Each side is too pationate to care about the others opinions so heres a thought... Dinar holders hope for the very best and you get an A for trying. Anti Dinar Investors dont invest and let these people spend their hard earned money they way they want to. One thing is for sure and that is someone will come out of this a winner and some a loser. Some just are lucky risk takers and others safe investors. Please go back to your corners and agree to disagree. Silly playground stuff here.
"Iraq is currently producing oabout 3bbpd, do you really expect us to believe that Iraq is using half that for their own local use, surely not, what do you take us for fools????"
This sentence is just too funny. To question if someone takes you for a fool in the same sentence that you claim Iraq is pumping 3 billion barrels of oil a day.
Quality entertainment.
I have to wonder why the IMF didn't step in and stop the Italian lira from trading when it sat at 1500:1 for years. The Japanese yen at about 100:1 never got shut down.
As for what the IMF really thinks about the Iraqi dinar... not some fantasy made up by a scamming dinar selling scum.
https://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2011/03/30/imf-suggests-stable-iraqi-dinar/
"A report on Monday by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) suggests that the Iraqi dinar is currently fairly valued at 1170 dinars to the US dollar:
“The CBI [Central Bank of Iraq] will continue to aim at keeping inflation low, predominantly by maintaining a stable exchange rate. The low level and the relative stability of inflation do not suggest any significant over- or under-valuation of the Iraqi dinar." "
The I M F is lying. Okie Oil Man has proof that Iraq will RV next week o $3.07!!
Lz says:
May 9, 2012 at 8:53 pm
The I M F is lying. Okie Oil Man has proof that Iraq will RV next week o $3.07!!
Laugh Out Loud !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okie from the Skokie Liar Liar Pants on Fire!!!!!
We are all gonna be RICH!!!
Cash out everything and buy more Dinars.
Any idea why on October 1994 IQD rate was US 2.8105 (The highest rate so far). It was from low rate of USD 0.0101 on July 1994.
Then it's went down to USD 0.0037 on August 1997 till now of 0.0009 in monthly average.
Got this from http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates/
Set the currency and range from January 1990 to today. (Click the calendar icon to set custom date)
Any idea what was happen? During July 1994 to December 1997? Speculator?
Hi Liz,
We are wasting our breath with B&S, oh take out the & and what do we get BS. Yep that's what those two are BS. The IMF is the only reason that the Dinar remains low, and the IMF isn't doing so just because they think that the Dinar is worth so little, and don't want it to drop and further, OH that's the funniest thing I've heard from these two so far. The Dinar dropped to the value that it did because of the sanctions that the UN put on Iraq, which nearly sent Iraq broke.
To BS, you two go a head and think what ever you like, I have my Dinar and I will wait patiently for the IMF to release the Iraqi Dinar so that it can return to a sensible value, and that will be up. Also the talk that the Iraqi government is going to remove several zeros, why do they keep put off doing so, because just as I said it is just talk. You two are just a pair of smart ass', that's all. For me I will not be replying to anything further that you two have to say, as I have made my decision and will face what ever the final out come will be happily or with disappoint........
Hang in there Liz I am sure we have made the right decision!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you choose to believe the dinar dealer fantsy made up version of events instead of the actual words of the IMF and CBI.
Good luck with that.
I was being sarcastic!
It will never RV!
Period.
Lz... people that think Iraq is pumping 3 billion barrels of oil a day and that the IMF shut down the dinar... I'm guessing those people probably have a tough time spotting sarcasm.
Barry & Stew,
Below are the historical rate for IQD for Period from Jan 1990 to today.
Period Average 0.0974
Period High 2.8105
Period Low 0.0003
The highest rate USD 2.8105 was on Oct 94. It was up from USD 0.0101 on July 94.
Then the highest rate was went down to USD 0.0037 on Dec 95. And the till now at average 0.0008 to 0009.
Any ideas what was happen on period of July 94 to Dec 95?
Used Oanda web for the rate historical.
http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates/
Moderator - please approve this comment.