History’s lesson for the dinar

I used to think that rapid increases in Iraqi oil production would practically guarantee a significant strengthening of the dinar over the next ten years. Surprisingly, however, history suggests that this is far from a foregone conclusion.

While the Oil Ministry claims that Iraqi capacity will rise by 10 million barrels per day (mn bbl/d) to something like 12 mn bbl/d by the end of this decade, few analysts take this projection seriously. In fact, no country has ever achieved such a large incremental increase in a ten-year period. Historically, a recent study by the Energy Policy Research Foundation (available at http://www.eprinc.org/pdf/EPRINC-Iraq-FirstLook.pdf) found that Saudi Arabia came closest, with an increase of about 6 mn bbl/d (up 150%) from 1970 – 79, followed by Iran, which went from around 2 – 6 mn bbl/d from 1965 – 1974, and Russia, which raised production by some 4 mn bbl/d (68%) from 1998 – 2007.

But suppose for the sake of argument that Iraq was able to match these precedents and raised production from approximately 2 mn bbl/d at present to, say, 6 mn bbl/d by 2019. What would happen to the dinar if it followed a trajectory similar to the Saudi riyal, Iranian rial, or Russian ruble during the oil booms in those three countries?

Not much, as it turns out. If it’s like the riyal or the ruble, the dinar would actually depreciate in US dollar terms by 25% or 16%, respectively. And the rial appreciated by just 12% from 1965 – 1974. (See chart. As the indices are based on year-end US$/local currency exchange rates, increases/decreases in an index correspond to appreciation/depreciation against the dollar.)

The problem with the idea that increased oil production must be bullish for the dinar is that it is based on the assumption that nothing changes except the output of oil (what economists call a “ceteris paribus” assumption). In fact, however, many other things can be expected to change. In the case of a large country like Russia, for example, domestic demand for refined products may rise significantly as well so that exports don’t go up at the same pace as crude production volumes. In the Saudi and Iranian cases, oil booms led to import booms, with the result that demand for foreign exchange rose along with increased export earnings. There might also be scenarios in which an increasingly confiscatory taxation regime led to greater dollar demand due to capital flight. And of course exporting more barrels won’t necessarily lead to higher forex revenues during an oil-price slump.

History’s lesson for the dinar is that whether it strengthens or weakens over the next decade will depend not only on Iraq’s success in increasing oil production but also on the economic changes that this increased production induces. If Iraqi demand for imports and refined products were frozen for ten years at current levels, a 4 mn bbl/d production increase would be unambiguously dinar positive. But in a more realistic scenario, supply and demand for foreign exchange are likely to grow together, with the result that the exchange rate may not deviate dramatically from its current level.

600 Responses to History’s lesson for the dinar

  1. Stew 5th January 2011 at 12:58 #

    JC... you got every pumper lie down pat. You should be in jail with the rest of them.

    Here is a study of all lops done in the last 30 or so years.
    http://www.unc.edu/%7Elmosley/APSA%202005.pdf

    A conclusion of the study which proves you are a lying scammer.

    "Hypothesis 2: Redenomination is more likely following a period of high inflation and a subsequent stabilization. A dramatic downward movement in inflation increases the probability of a redenomination."

  2. Stew 5th January 2011 at 13:01 #

    JC… Your reprint cost issue shows even more ignorance. If they do this mythical RV as you claim, they will need new currency for that as well.

  3. mark 5th January 2011 at 13:54 #

    It's looking pretty good Peter. I've always been kind of unsure about foreign stocks because of the possibility of a company getting delisted but diversity is the key. If I had the extra money I'd like to get in myself. You might see some short term fluctuations over the next few months but overall looks bullish to me. Wish I was in!

    Hard to know for sure what's going to happen over there with the currency but that article from last week looks like they want to lop. Another article I read from several weeks ago stated something about wanting to enhance and preserve the value of the dinar but seems like that could be done with a redom. followed by an RV. JC, you've made a lot of money from investments and I haven't. lol. Don't see why you'd be in this if it was going to be a breakeven situation or worse. Just seems like most of the articles are saying lop. If they lop 1st and then RV at 3 to 1 the value is $3. How would that be worse for their economy than an RV at $3 without a lop? The big question to me is what can they realistically afford? Plus, the huge amount still in circulation is a big problem if there still really is that much. Stew, everything you've said looks accurate judging from what I've seen in the news articles. I'd sure like to make some money from this but I guess we'll all find out for sure before too much longer. Thanx for all the input guys.

  4. peter 5th January 2011 at 15:54 #

    Mark,yes diversification is key over there..I heard Warka will be trading again and Baghdad Soft drink and Modern Construction are now trading again.I have about 30 companies now.. mostly in the Banking and Industry sectors and some Hotels.Thing reminds me of buying penny metal stocks in 2000 when everybody was laughing at me...Heck I might even recommending taking a loan out for this one..lol.
    Heck..It's only the biggest stories of our lifetime..This one may just be it.!!
    Enjoy...

  5. JC 5th January 2011 at 15:55 #

    ROTFLMMFAO at the clown Stewart. The VERY article YOu referenced for supporting your theory, was where I got the QUOTE, "The process of deletion of zeros and the replacement of the currency would be too costly to the economy".

    You ignorant fool. The currency is printed. They ARE NOT printing any more. ALL of the smaller bills are DONE.

    At Mark, the very thing all of you guys, and especially Stewart, is overlooking, is that the value of the currency within Iraq rises as they raise their value with it. When they negotiate contracts, it'll be based on their new rate. When they are trying to encourage investors, and want to retain the hundreds upon thousands of contracts already signed, do you cut your own throat by taking away the very thing that brought investors in to begin with? So yes, they have to pay out a ton of money, but they also receive a ton for their own currencies intricate value for new contracts, and new investors.

    Stewart, show me ONE single instance where Dr. Shabibi has said the word LOP. He has not. He HAS said he will raise the value of the dinar after the GOI is officially seated and announced. It could be to .10, it could be much higher. the fact is, NOBODY KNOWS EXCEPT DR. SHABIBI.

    As for me being in jail, show me a single Dinar dealer, licensed to do business in the US, who is in jail for selling Dinar.

    because one idiot Japanese businessman was dumb enough to but a million Dinar for $25,000, that's his own stupidity. Can you imagine the legal backlash coming down on the long list of banks here in the US that are selling Dinar, not to mention against our own government, and the thousands of very knowledgeable financial planners, bankers, and fund managers who would lose everything, if this did turn out to be a scam. Wake up Princess Stewart. Time to smell the coffee.

  6. Stew 5th January 2011 at 16:42 #

    JC… the guy in the article says NOTHING about a big RV. It’s perfectly acceptable that he believes the expense of lopping and issuing a new currency is prohibitive.
    It’s only morons like you who believe that they can’t afford to issue a new currency… yet somehow think they can afford to increase the value of every sing dinar issued by 100,000%, which along with the ridiculous expense of that move, would also have the same exact expense of issuing new currency.

    By your argument that everyone makes a profit off of this, which is nonsense, why stop at 1 or 3 dollars per dinar. Why not $10 per dinar… heck if it’s all good for everyone involved then why not $100 per dinar.

    Did you read the study of all the lops done in the last 40 or so years?? How many times is the word lop in it? NONE… the term is redenomination and they have used it over and over. Did you notice the title of the study of all lops? The title is “Dropping Zeros”. Same thing we’ve seen over and over.

  7. Stew 5th January 2011 at 17:07 #

    So I’ve shown you the study of the 80 or so lops done in the last 30 years. The technical term is redenomination. They also refer to it as dropping zeros. These are the same exact terms that the 100’s of articles from Iraq use. Many specifically refer to reducing the money supply from the 27 trillion number back to billions. Your RV plan, taking a 10,000 note in a receiving ten 100 notes would not reduce the money supply by one single dinar. Can you show me the study of all the massive RVs done recently, last 100 years or so? You can’t because there are none. The Kuwait example is a lie, they never changed the value of their currency. The Germany example is also a lie. They redenominated/lopped. No one has ever even shown an instant RV of 5%, let alone 100,000% like you scammers claim. These articles have been floating around for years, and for you to believe that Shabbibi, The Minister of Finance, CBI officials, other government officials, and a large number of economist and journalist are openly discussing a 100,000% RV, which has never before happened, and just the mentioning of it would throw Iraq and most of the world into turmoil shows glorious magnificent stupidity on your part.

    On the other hand, since a redenomination is revenue neutral, it’s no big deal that they are talking about doing this openly.

  8. JC 5th January 2011 at 17:22 #

    Let's look beyond the fact that the $3.22 rate from Saddam was an intra-country rate. The accepted rate from the IMF of the Dinar was over $2.00 to every dollar. That was back in the 80's. The value of oil was VERY low. Now, fast forward to today. They now have the largest confirmed reserve of oil in the world. Shell oil, along with over 20 other oil companies are jumping through every hoop imaginable, to bid on their oil.

    The 2011 budget was read twice before the end of the current legislative session, and was sent back to the finance committee for re adjustment, based upon the new rise of oil to over $90 per barrel.

    Ok, for simple terms, if Iraq has 5 trillion Dinar out, and they re value to an even $1, which by the way, is documented that they MUST at minimum, bring their currency to market at a reasonable, marketable and equitable value compared to regional currencies, then they would have to pay out 5 trillion dollars. Where you miss the point in all of this, is that Iraq would receive like value on incoming investments to rebuild their infrastructure. A 1 Billion Dinar contract currently, isn't worth very much to a construction company. But, that same company does see it's worth their time, and effort to rebuild Iraq at $1 Billion US, and can then rent out office space, open up retail outlets, etc. It's no different than here in the US, except the situation in Iraq hasn't been seen since the end of World War 2.

    Now, you may say, "But JC, they can't possibly have a Dinar more valuable than Saudi Arabia's currency. Apples to oranges. saudi Arabia pays it's citizens a big fat royalty check every month, to do nothing but sit around and smoke hash. But, a country like Kuwait, which by the way, is a drop in the bucket wealth wise compared to Iraq, is actually a good barometer when comparing like values. If the IQD is revalued in such a way, as to be significantly higher or lower than Kuwait, it creates trade havoc in the entire region.

    For me personally, if it did RV at only .10, I'd go out and buy even more, knowing that when the currency hits the Forex, it'll sky rocket.

    lastly, in order for the IQD to be on Forex, they have to be recognized by the IMF. In order to be recognized by the IMF, they must have an equitable currency to the region. The IMF will not recognize them at .10. The Paris club debt that was forgiven based upon a back door understanding between all of the countries and Iraq. They absolutely can not afford to go backwards. Their people are on the brink of civil war. They are ready for the promises that were made to them by their government for improved conditions. Their time, is fast approaching.

  9. JC 5th January 2011 at 17:56 #

    We all know that Kuwait was reduced in value because of saddam, and his theft of printing plates for the Kuwait dinar. The value DID drop down to .10, rose to over $5, and settled into a nice pattern at it's current rate of around $3.50. That has been documented in countless news stories.

    The story about the new 100,000 bill has been absolutely debunked. And, to remove the money supply, all they have to do is what they are ALREADY doing, removing large notes from circulation. There are many reports from various sources that between 60-85% of the large notes have been either removed via the CBI, or are being held in Federal reserves around the globe. The dinar that the US is holding can NOT be counted in our money supply, because it's not yet legal tender.

    You have yet to address the scam claims you make, yet the list of US banks that sell AND buy back the Iraqi Dinar is growing daily. Major banks like 5/3rd, TD, BB&T, Capital One and select Chase branches buy and sell the IQD. In addition, small regional banks like the Bank of Oklahoma, Columbia Credit Union in Wa state and many others are also actively involved in selling and buying Dinar. After the Rv, they all will.

    I think we have battered this board enough. Like Patriot radio says, I'm right, you are wrong, end of the story. In a short time, we'll see who is mega rich, and who gave terrible advise to countless people.
    By the way, the ISX IS on fire. Look for additional growth as they expand their presence in the stock market as more Iraqi companies co0me on board.

  10. mark 5th January 2011 at 18:04 #

    JC, I see some of what you're saying about the value of the currency rising and giving them more purchasing power and bringing in additional investments. Do you think a lop generated value of $1.00 (or $3) if they RV afterwards would accomplish the same thing? Their currency would be on par with the US and Kuwait and also higher than Saudi Arabia. Plus the currency level would be brought down to a very manageable level. Wouldn't the effect of the higher rate be the same on contracts negotiated and on bringing in more investment and revenue? That's the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around - if the currency is brought up to say $1.00, it's still $1.00 regardless of whether they got there through a lop or an RV right? I've been invested for a while but I haven't really done a lot of research until this year with all the talk about forming the govt. I'm hoping that we can actually make money on this. I can think of a ton of nice things I can do with a few hundred thousand dollars if the value was brought up even to double digits. I'm just trying to be a realistic as possible and be open to the possibilities of what a lot of the news articles are saying is going to happen. I might be convinced if I could see that a lop followed by an RV to $2 or 3 dollars would be bad for their economy.

  11. JC 5th January 2011 at 18:36 #

    Mark,
    The architects of the plan will not stand for a LOP. The IMF needs this to go down the way it's being designed, to bail out the international community. The bigger picture is even with a non LOP RV of $1 or higher, it's only a temporary band aid. Until governments start spending within their means, the world economy is in trouble.

    Time will tell about this investment.

  12. mark 5th January 2011 at 18:54 #

    JC, the crazy spending has to be brought under control that's for sure. And I'm all for an RV if that's how it goes down. There are strongly divided sides on this and everyone's got their own opinion. I think they should just let it go on the open market and see what happens and I guess they're working towards getting to the point where that can actually be a possibility. I bought mine back when I had money to burn and actually have made more on that than on my real estate and stock portfolio which took a nosedive during the recession. Crazy stuff can happen bro. If they want to make me and a bunch of speculators millionaires and it benefits them as well then I'm all for it!

    Peter, who did you go through to purchase your companies?

  13. Stew 5th January 2011 at 18:58 #

    Look at this link. It shows historical information on Iraq.
    http://www.cbi.iq/documents/Annual_2002f.pdf
    Scroll down to Table 2 on page 5. It shows currency in circulation. It was 21.8 Billion in 1991.
    Now scroll down to Table 10, page 17. Exchange rates. This is what the dinar was really worth… not Saddams fake $3 rate that hadn’t existed since the early eighties.
    In 1991 the rate had already dropped to 10 cents per dinar and was 1675 dinar to the dollar by 1995.
    Now look at this link
    http://www.cbi.iq/documents/key%20financial.xls
    These are Iraq’s current financial numbers.
    Add line 76, currency outside of banks… 23.8 Trllion
    Plus line 80, vault cash… 3.4 trillion
    That’s 27.2 trillion dinar in circulation, exactly the number that they have quoted in a number of the “delete 3 zero articles.

    The CBI also clearly states in this document
    http://www.cbi.iq/documents/Key_Financial_Indicators_Documentation.pdf
    In line 4. Uses… A- currency outside of banks.
    “the new currency issued by the CBI less redemption of old and damaged new currency notes.”
    So any currency bought back (redeemed) at auction or by any other function is taken into account when reporting this number.

    Now… this chart shows all the money in the world.
    http://dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00565
    Scroll down to last chart. This is all the currencies in the world added together.
    The blue part is currency in circulation measured in dollars of all the money in the world.
    Looks like it’s about $5 Trillion.

    A 1:1 RV would give Iraq over 5 times more currency than the rest of the world combined.

    Game, set, match… big RV is a fantasy.

    I’m sure JC will take issue with this information. It’s not written by a dinar dealer or pumper. He over and over claims dinar propaganda as being “documented in countless news stories”. Almost all he claims is from their imagination. It’s stunning how many dinar people have told me to do due diligence on the dinar and I’ll see the potential. When I ask them to point me to this info… they invariably point me to Scooter, Medic, Frank, Brietling, Dinar Daddy, Adam, Neno, Kaperoni, Oiki Oil Man and many of the other dinar pumpers. That’s one of the big problems with the dinar. For some reason people believe that reading the lies that these people pump out on an hourly basis is due diligence.
    Sad… a fool and his money are soon parted.

  14. peter 5th January 2011 at 20:04 #

    Hi Mark,
    I use Nausheruan at Rabee Securities,he has been very helpful and always easy to get a hold of.They had my account set-up and funded within one week..really no joke,then I was buying the following week.He's easy to talk with on skype..He's doing some bottom fishing for me right now.I'm buying Baghdad soft drink and Modern Construction tomorrow.(But their fees are the highest I found) I feel they may be a big player when the institutional money finally decides to step in.So I wanna be where deals will be made like private placements and seed capital deals ..pre-IPO stuff..That's where the big money is made ..not in the retail buying..ya know ?

    BTW I know what you mean about real estate bro..I've been killed..thank god it's all still cash flowing tho..I bought funky small motels that are staying full because of the foreclosures..haha..I'm very thankful for silver tho..it's saved my beacon..although I just sold all of it today..thinking it's about to tank again..then I'll reenter in a month or so..for the next up leg..i think silver is headed to 20-23.00 short term.great buying opportunity for tiny silver producers that will get creamed ..then will explode 100-300 % on the next move.
    But i would be thinking about exiting again in April-May till August..I think next fall will blow the world away with what the metals may do..Silver approaching 40-50.00 next winter.
    UNLESS..we have have an RV..then all bets are off cuz i'm headin to Tahiti..!!and the metal will tank !..haha..enjoy all..

  15. LZ 6th January 2011 at 07:55 #

    Stew,
    I do agree with you that all those guru's are pumpers for Dinartrade spewing urgency to get more dinars because the deal is done. I cant tell you how many times i read that. I love all the excuses they come up with too. They write stuff that almost claims them to be privy to private conversations that the laeders of Iraq have in private. Most pumpers aim at midwestern and southern church going types that believe everything they read. I do wish the pumpers could be exposed ... I feel they are all Iraqis laughing at us with their ''RUMORS'.
    My question for you Stew is do you feel Iraq will and can go international with the rate at 1170 without lopping? Can they get on the forex and have a floating rate?

  16. Rabibi 6th January 2011 at 08:44 #

    JC & Stew,

    Your dialogue sounds like the script from a movie filled with hand to hand financial combat.

    Question: Everyday I read that 10-20-100 billion dollar deals/contracts are being signed in Iraq by foriegn investors, oil companies, power companies etc... Are these billions in dinar or US dollars? If they're in US dollars then it would seem that Stews arguement about the amount of IQD in circulation is a poor arguement. Wouldn't the economy/Gov of Iraq need that much in circulation in order to fulfill its contract obligations unless the currency revalues?

  17. Michael 6th January 2011 at 16:00 #

    JC - You speak of a plan that the IMF has regarding this. You do realize that the IMF has participated in the redenomination of several countries don't you?

    Also, with the current listed reserves of Iraq standing about about 143 billion barrels - at a rate of $100 per barrel, that would give them a lifetime value today at approximately 14.3 trillion dollars. The last I saw the M3 of Iraq was somewhere north of 50 trillion dinars (think it was closer to 80 trillion dinar). Even at a 1:1 ration there would be no way for Iraq to cover, let alone support a rate of that amount.

    If they performed a redenomination (lop), they would be able to increase the value based on the current level of reserves held at the CBI (last reported to be $50 billion). So there is a potential for a profit, IF the CBI decides to redenominate and revalue at the same time. If they choose to redenominate, get the old notes out of circulation then raise the value - those holding the current issue of dinar will be looking at a small loss on their investment (premiums paid to get the dinar, shipping and exchange fees).

  18. James 6th January 2011 at 16:16 #

    Stew

    I have noticed that you keep bring up old stuff
    who really cares about that lets talk about the new

  19. Stew 6th January 2011 at 16:55 #

    James. Knowing the past helps to understand the present.
    New stuff.. My post contains links to Iraq present amount of currency... plus the present amount of currency in the entire world.
    Knowing that a 1:1 RV would give Iraq 5 times more currency than the rest of the world combined is talking about new stuff.
    Showing the old stuff shows that Iraq has increased their money supply by over 1000 times which explains perfectly why the exchange rate is 1000 times worse. It's no problem for Iraq to return to approx the old rate, but they must also return to approx the same money supply.
    It's as simple as that.

  20. MLong 6th January 2011 at 18:04 #

    Time will show whether JC or Stew is right (pertaining to IQD RV).

    Are we going to see the one proven wrong admits his mistake in this thread?

  21. JC 6th January 2011 at 18:06 #

    Stew, Don't you think that with Shabibi removing the large denomination notes from circulation, the real meaning behind removing the zero's, that he is in fact reducing the supply of money? Several dealers I have ordered from in the past, along with about a half a dozen people from E-Bay, are not able to get the larger notes now.

    And, before you forget, Iraq didn't lower their rate, the UN, IMF and World bank MADE them lower it. It was the sanctions brought against Iraq that resulted from the Kuwait invasion, that caused the value to go down. When the new Dinar was introduced in 2003, the value was actually lower than today. So, your argument of the value being lower due to overwhelming money supply doesn't add up. The vale has gotten better, and the CBI is pulling the large notes out of usable circulation.

    And, this is where the fractional banking method will comer into play.

    Lastly, it's not like I'm going to walk into my bank and demand cash for my 127 million Dinar. It's all done electronically. If the US can be in debt 3 times greater than their own money supply, that also goes to show you the actual physical currency is meaningless. Iraq's inflation is, and has been low, for some time now. With their supply of physical Dinar, their inflation rate should be 30% or higher, but it's not even close to that figure.

  22. Stew 6th January 2011 at 18:48 #

    JC… Honestly… I don’t know how to have a discussion with you. Practically every point you bring up is a lie/fantasy made up by dinar dealers/pumpers.

    I provided the link showing you the report from the Central Bank that shows the money supply is still growing. When they say they will remove the large denomination currency in the delete 3 zero articles, that means the entire currency. The entire currency is considered large denominations. They have 50 dinar notes that are worth about 4 cents. That’s a large denomination note. There has never been any article that said that they were specifically removing 25k and 10k notes and not the smaller notes. Some guru misinterpreted something and twisted it to that and that’s how dinar facts come about.
    I just typed in Iraqi dinar 25,000 on ebay and it returned 102 results. That’s a shortage? Dealers have been making up shortage rumors for years now.
    The UN, IMF, and World Bank DID NOT make Iraq lower their rate. The rates reported by the CBI in that document I listed were the real rates for the dinar during that period. Saddam didn’t allow the CBI to report any information to the IMF or anyone else. That’s why the IMF showed the ridiculous $3 rate through all those years and everyone just laughed at it.
    My argument adds up perfectly if you knew what to look for.
    Iraq had a money supply in the 20 billion range back in the early eighties. The central bank had foreign currency reserves (dollars) in the $60 billion range. That’s how they had a rate of 3:1. They had 3 times more reserves than currency.
    Saddam then came into power and went to war with Iran. He took that $60 billion from the CBI and spent it. That’s why the currency lost value before the money supply took off. Once Saddam spent the FX reserves he then started printing currency like crazy. So with no FX reserves to back it, and an exploding money supply, the value went down to 3000:1. When Saddam was tossed they started to replenish FX reserves, which brought the value back up. They have continued to add to the money supply as they have continued to add FX reserves. That’s why the rate has stayed stable for years even thought the money supply has grown from about 5 trillion when Saddam was ousted, up to the 27 Trillion now.
    Iraq backs their currency 100% with FX reserves. Haven’t you read many times that the dinar is a strong currency? Haven’t you wondered how a 1170:1 currency can be strong? It’s because of the backing and not the rate. If the rate was $3 per dinar, but they only backed it with 75% FX reserves, then it would be a weak currency.

  23. mark 6th January 2011 at 18:48 #

    JC, I see what you're saying there. It actually has gone up in value some over the past few years. The exchange rate is slightly better than when I bought it. I think it was 1400 to 1 or something like that back then. And you've definitely put your money where your mouth is. You have an enormous amount invested and you don't seem like the type of investor to throw money at the wind. The key is that the enormous money supply is brought way way down for there to be any substantial increase in value without a redom. If they stop making it available to all the dealers then that would be a good sign.

    Thanx for the info Peter. I'm still weighing my options but I might just get in before too much longer.

  24. James 7th January 2011 at 06:51 #

    LZ , I agree 100% about the gurus , Now if im not mistaking i believe in order to go live on the Forex your value has to be at 0.10 to be accepted , Stew i sure hope your wrong but i cant see how you are at the moment unless someone here can tell us how Iraq can cover even at 0.10 without a (lop) or a rd but i can say either way no one has any proof whats gonna happen even the money supply could be lies cause i dont think any country would expose them self right before a RV or a RI i also believe when the dealers stop selling something will happy soon after i mean comon if i was a dealer and had 50billion in IQD packaged and ready to ship out and we had a RV do you really think that money would make it to you? NOT

    OK someone help here please prove me wrong or Stew for that matter

  25. Stew 7th January 2011 at 07:35 #

    Liz… I don’t mean to pick on you, but your post is a perfect example of what happens in dinar land.
    The .10 to be on forex thing you quote. I’ve read that, and similar comments on dinar boards. Now you, and many others, take it as a fact. Sorry, but its pure fabrication. Nothing but a dealer/pumper lie. What is the Japanese Yen at? What has it been at for years? About 1 cent. How about the Italian Lira? The Italian Lira was about 1500:1 for years before they switched to the Euro. The South Korean Won currently floats on the forex at a rate of 1120:1.

  26. Stew 7th January 2011 at 07:46 #

    Liz… the other dealer/pumper fabrication in your post is the claim that the CBI is lying about it’s money supply numbers.
    Practically every country has a Central Bank web site where they report financial statistics. The IMF demands transparency in reporting those numbers. The IMF would have nothing to do with a country that was intentionally cooking the books.
    The odds that those numbers are substantially misreported… I’d say less than a million to one. Jim Carrey (Lloyd) might like those odds, but I don’t think I’d base an investment on it.

  27. Stew 7th January 2011 at 07:50 #

    Sorry James... those post were for you. Saw LZ at the beginning of your post and I read it as LIZ. It's early here on the west coast.

  28. Stew 7th January 2011 at 08:05 #

    Now I see LZ’s post above.
    LZ… The pumpers are amazing aren’t they? What’s more amazing to me is the people that continually defend them and practically beg to be lied to again and again.
    I don’t know where everyone gets the idea that Iraq is going to float on the Forex. No other Middle East country floats that I know of and Iraq has actually specifically said that they will not float. They stated a while back they would establish a “forward” market for the dinar. A forward market means specifically that it will not be traded on the established Forex market.
    LOL… it was probably that article that was used as proof by the pumpers that it was going on the Forex.
    There was even an article out that stated the planned GCC dinar would not float, that it would be a pegged currency for quite some time and that it may eventually float some time down the road.

  29. Rabibi 7th January 2011 at 08:05 #

    Stew,

    Do you own Iraqi Dinar? What would be a conservative estimate on what it may revalue at?

  30. mark 7th January 2011 at 08:23 #

    Stew's already said that it'll be a redomination where the value could go up to $1.00 but only because 3 zeros are removed from the currency with no net gain or loss to investors. Stew, say this happens and dinar holders only break even or come out with a slight loss where would you say that they go from here - investment wise that is?

  31. Stew 7th January 2011 at 08:31 #

    I had a substantial amount of dinar at one time, bought in a hurry buying into the hype that it was going to happen any day. Then will a little due diligence, real facts, not pumper fairy tales, I saw the facts and sold out. Will probably jump on the ISX soon.
    Why do you think it will RV at all?
    It's 1170 right now. If it goes to 1169 then it's a RV right?
    I don't think the dinar will see any substantial overnight increase. I think they will lop 3 zeros, redenominate, new currency, rate of 85 cents per dinar. That rate may then SLOWLY increase up to 1 to 1. It may also slowly go down. Never know.

  32. Rabibi 7th January 2011 at 08:38 #

    Mark- So you and Stew are saying that even if the dinar revalues at 1 cent that it would not be a worth while investment? It does not seem unreasonable that when and if the currency redenominates that it could revalue at 1 cent. If this scenario happens wouldn't a person that paid 1K for 1Mil dinars make 10K profit even if it revalued for 1 penny?

  33. Rabibi 7th January 2011 at 08:44 #

    Stew,

    I appreciate your views on this post. It is difficult to find a pro-con analysis online becasue of the amount of hype circulating around the dinar on the internet. It is also somewhat difficult to get a clear message from the GOI due to the fact that Gov is brand new and I'm not sure all these "ministers" are actually sure what their roles are.

  34. Stew 7th January 2011 at 09:07 #

    Mark... If you want to be invested in Iraq, I'd say the Iraqi Stock Market (ISX) is the place to be.
    Mark Deweaver's latest post on this site talks a bit about the potential.
    https://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2011/01/07/isx-ready-for-lift-off-2/

  35. peter 7th January 2011 at 10:13 #

    Here is my thoughts.If you have 200k in the ISX now.And it goes up 200% this year (entirely possible).You now have 600k.Then IF the currency appreciates or R/V's at .02 cent on the USD.Then you have about 1.2-1.4 mil USD.I think this is a rational speculation all around.
    I'm IN!! Enjoy the ride all..

  36. EMMET 7th January 2011 at 10:45 #

    Now people are talking rational. The ISX is a solid investment. Just think of 1929 crash and the the NYSE starting over. Banks recaping almost every year. Some investors bought in early and got washed away when shares were at the prices of the hotels currently. You really can't go wrong investing the ISX if you as me. As for the revalue of the Iraqi dinar I fell the it would be modest of the Iraqi's make solider rich. I should happen for the sacrafice we made. Alot of private money is heading over to Iraq as we speak. For those of us that invested in the ISX early are in total hold mode but as for now it looks like we have signs of life. During the booming for Samrra the market took a hit... We are rebounding.... Go Iraq go Isx.... Afterall these people need purchasing power too and the dollar is fallling... Go ISX..

    Al Warka Investment Bank
    Credit Bank of Iraq
    Mousel Bank
    Dar es Salam

    All the Insurance plays

    All service sectors

  37. James 7th January 2011 at 11:58 #

    How do you invest in the ISX ??

  38. peter 7th January 2011 at 15:58 #

    James,
    Simply go to Warka bank dot com .
    Or go to Rabee securities dot com and open an account.Simple as pie!Wire your money and Start trading in a week.I sold 1/3 my bullion holding and put it there..
    Do some research,spend some time,,vast fortunes will be made over the next 5 years IMHO..
    What an adventure...just think of looking back..telling your kids their daddies rich because he had the Balls to...This is how it happens my friends..
    I personally have had penny stocks that have gone up 20 times in only 2 years..this will happen in Iraq,,the time is now to get in..don't wait..
    I'm also checking into getting into the new ASX -Arbil Stock Exchange in Kurdistan right now that is suppose to open soon.
    This reminds me of buying Intel stock in the early '90s..
    here is our chance now..What will you do with it ?

  39. Mark 7th January 2011 at 17:33 #

    Rabibi, if it revalues at 1 cent we'll be able to cash out at roughly 10k per million dinars. I'll be very pleasantly surprised if that happens in the near future and I'll be 1st in line at the bank!

    Peter, thanx again for the investment info. And Stew I agree. The ISX looks like the place to be now and I'm going to be jumping on the bandwagon in the near future.

  40. LZ 8th January 2011 at 05:21 #

    Stew,
    So what you are saying is that there is 0 chance this will re value and dinar holders will NOT make any money period?
    Any advise on what to do with our dinars? I noticed they increased the buyback rate at Dinartrade by a few bucks.

  41. Rabibi 8th January 2011 at 09:16 #

    Liz,

    I beleive what Stew is saying above is that the dinar has the possibility of eventually going up but it will not be an overnight RV. In his view the currency will redenominate and then over time have the potential to increase or decrease like any other currency. I am of the opinion that it could both redenominate and slightly revalue. The investment is certainly highly speculative for short term and time will only tell what will happen to the currency over 5-10 years. Your thougths Stew?

  42. Stew 8th January 2011 at 09:55 #

    It is my opinion based on the numbers reported, and I have absolutely no reason not to believe those numbers, I believe the dinar will redenominated/lop. Parliament has to approve it. The CBI is pushing for it to happen soon. It could happen soon. Who knows though, maybe parliament is split on the idea and doesn’t approve it for another year or two and Iraq continues on same path. There could be a slight increase in value at the time of the lop, maybe instead of 85 cents per new dinar, it could be $1 per dinar. I doubt that would happen though, and surely doubt it would be any higher than that.
    Another problem is I doubt the dealers will access to enough of the new dinar to exchnage everyone out. I think most will be forced to except dollars for thier dinars.

  43. Rabibi 8th January 2011 at 09:57 #

    Stew,

    Thank you again for the insight.

  44. Michael 8th January 2011 at 13:52 #

    Stew - I can see the option that they combine a redenomination and revaluation at the same time. They do appear to have the reserves to make such a move. It is not near the payout that the pumpers claim will occur, but could negate any loss and possibly create a small profit for those outside of Iraq.

  45. LZ 8th January 2011 at 15:03 #

    Is Stew taking over this column from Mark?

  46. Stew 8th January 2011 at 17:40 #

    Michael... just remember that their reserves not only back the currency in circulation. The reserves back the full monetary base. Their M1 number, which is currently at 48 Trillion.
    Look at this link again.
    http://www.cbi.iq/documents/key%20financial.xls
    Go all the way down to the bottom, 3rd line from the bottom.
    They track and report a FX assets / base money (m1) ratio. It is currently, and has been for a long time, over 1.0 which is 100%. They do not want that number to fall below 1.0 which would mean they have less than 100% backing of their monetary base.
    So that's not a lot of room for a increase.

  47. gr 8th January 2011 at 22:16 #

    http://www.mop.gov.iq/mop/index.jsp?sid=1&id=308&pid=295&lng=en

    RV will be 1.134/1 or higher.

  48. Rabibi 8th January 2011 at 23:18 #

    GR,

    Thank you for the information. Do you know the date the information was posted on the Ministry of Planning website?

  49. James 8th January 2011 at 23:56 #

    Stew Stew STEW LOL

    From the baghdad-news.com

    The process of deletion of zeros and the replacement of the currency would be too costly to the economy and society (was visible and not visible) and from the cost study process and cost consultancy and cost printing and cost replacement and the accompanying processes of corruption and large-scale, in addition to the cost of lawsuits and damages ….

    Along with the cost to support the economy during and after the replacement process.

    I believe this carries a bit of weight

  50. Stew 9th January 2011 at 10:55 #

    James James James… LOL… way to cherry pick.
    Again… are you going to claim that Iraq can’t afford the new currency… but can somehow afford a huge RV? A RV would also require new currency.

    The article you cherry picked this info from talks about the lop happening in early 2011 and you pulled one dissenting opinion out of it. Here’s whole thing and a few of the other quotes.
    http://currencynewshound.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/the-iraqi-dinar-and-delete-three-zeros-beginning-of-2011-2/

    LOL…. The title of the article is…
    “The Iraqi dinar and delete three zeros; Beginning of 2011”
    Does that sound like they aren’t going to do it?

    “Approaching hour Declaration deletion of three zeros from the current currency”

    “Policy to delete the zeros is an internationally known, particularly in developing countries that have suffered from excessive levels of inflation, monetary, and was among the targets of that action is to reduce the masses of cash circulating in the economy”

    This quote is PERFECT. It sates that the process to delete zeros is a known process that other countries have used. Since no country has ever RVd like the pumpers claim, we know he aint talking about an RV… It’s a lop.

    “There is no doubt that the process of deletion of zeros and replace the existing currency in Iraq would aim to reduce the money supply”

    RV would not reduce money supply at all.

    “Finally, we can say that the decision to delete the zeros and the replacement of the current currency will come a new Iraqi dinar, sooner or later…”

    So… James… you might want to read the entire article before you make such a claim.